Philosophy slam part 1: The art of the possible

Robert Rowland Smith 00:03
So Mark and I are going to try and respond to single words that you come up with. You can write them in the chat box, broadly speaking on the theme of the conference, but if you want to write throw in a complete non sequitur like banana or armadillo, we'll try and do our best to respond to that.

Robert Rowland Smith 00:16
Maybe Mark don't have a go at this word transformation. I know you're going through a personal transformation today, because in fact, before standing up, you were lying down snoozing on your sofa.

Dr Mark Vernon 00:24
That's the transformation from unconsciousness to consciousness. And luckily I got there for the first important step. Well, when I was thinking about this word, and then actually when Jim there was just talking about being in the fourth industrial revolution now the word transform actually comes from the first industrial revolution, so called in the 14th century, when a new kind of freedom was felt to become possible the word modern was actually first used. And so people got very interested in this idea.

 

What do we do with this new freedom both socially in terms of developing their civic states, developing the industry, the economy, and so on, but also personally, and it's always worth thinking about etymology of words, because in the origin
of a word, it's a kind of struggle to understand what it really means as the word is born. And the word transform means through appearances so the idea is that real transformation comes about when you have an appearance, you look through the appearance to what lies behind it, maybe the spirit, the energy, the archetype, that is informing the appearance, and then we make the appearance. So strangely enough, it's actually a kind of inward turn a contemplation and attention to what's really going on. That enables transformation, very different from just reaching for another appearance. Hope you kind of stacks up.

 

So that was my first thought goes all the way back to the first industrial revolution, becoming fresh for the fourth.

Robert Rowland Smith 01:41
I love what you say that mark and maybe you might you can keep an eye on the chat box so we can think about what we might tackle next. But when I was thinking about this word transformation the first thing that came up for me was the history of alchemy and poetry, and the idea of the changing of state to being something that's magical and poetic in some way.

 

So probably the most famous text from the classical world at least from transformation will be offered to metamorphoses or metamorphosis, depending on your pronunciation preferences. Where typically a god will transform themselves into a human or even an animal in order to conduct their business on Earth.

 

So transformation has this sense of the supernatural around it, maybe the mystical and perhaps something even theological, and I think we retain a notion of that when we talk about individual transformation today, you know, if we think of how, you know, people are most reality TV programmes, who transformed their lives, you know, they've, they've been, you know, in trouble or they've had physical problems or whatever it might be, and then you see them again, and they've reborn in some way, that active Renaissance I think we, we find quite moving in a way that there can be a poetry and there's movement of the from the before, to the after, as though we've reached or maybe two points a bit mark as though we've reached or found within us some deeper resource that predates or otherwise has eluded our conscious cognition, in order to find a new self within ourselves, so that we flourish like I mean, I guess the if you want to set aside the classical references, the other most potent symbol, we have a transformation today and I was thinking about this recently, because of the passing of Eric Carle would be the caterpillar he wrote this book, The Very Hungry Caterpillar, some of you will know about and of course the caterpillar Isn't this amazing creature that is, it's able to go from Caterpillar to a butterfly.

 

So I think I want to just emphasise that that a transformation is a sort of beautiful, beautiful, almost mystical experience, certainly in history of literature, and mythology. And secondly, I think it's a way of finding a deeper resource within ourselves.

 

And since the theme of this conference is cognitive diversity, I want to think that we all have greater diversity within ourselves than sometimes we allow ourselves to recognise and that diversity, I think, comes from tapping into things like unconscious forces, which enable self transformation to take place.

Dr Mark Vernon 03:50
Well, on that note, Robert, there's many words coming through. So thanks very much indeed for that and we're just gonna be able to handle a few. But look, one that stood out because of what's being said already, actually is the word empathy. I imagine that the word empathy is gonna be on many people's minds today.

 

It's another good word will be the history. It's actually a very recent word, just the end of the 19th century. And it was first coined for use in art and aesthetics.

 

So this is kind of relating to what I was your saying, there. In fact, the idea was the contemplating an object of art, its spirit could sort of fill you and then you could almost step into each other's shoes. And it was used to understand in that way, it became very closely associated with sympathy, of course understanding and that felt sense, but you know, there's an interesting thing. In psychotherapy, I work as a psychotherapist, and I think that amongst psychotherapists, there's quite a weariness of empathy. And the reason is this, I think, is that you have actually, it's more of an art you have to know yourself as a sort of full human being as much as possible in order to really engage with someone else as a full human being as well.

 

Because if you don't, then you kind of lose yourself in them and it gets a bit sticky, you're not quite sure what's going on and so on. It's like problems are saying actually, maybe those kind of unconscious aspects of yourself, they can be triggered and developed by someone else. And then there's a genuine meeting because the genuine meeting actually takes two people or more to come together, feeling fully themselves, not just feeling oh, my goodness, I gotta understand, I don't know what's going on and so on, which is why they're losing themselves and I even as I move down quite naturally sort of deflating motion, whereas the ones about to stand up, know ourselves and know everybody else as well. So the weariness about empathy, there's a little bit more to it than sometimes I think is is put out there. But Robert, 

Robert Rowland Smith 05:25
I hate to agree with you, Mark, but I'm going to on this occasion out and build a little bit on it.

 

And also, what I'd like to do is also make a distinction between empathy and sympathy because I think those two gifts are often used interchangeably and to my mind, they're very different.

 

So just to, as I say, against my better instincts agree with you, Mark. I think that's right and in the work that you and I both do in systemic therapy, you know, will often say to people training in that world, be more like a surgeon less like a nurse because actually, it's being detached, which can really help people because if you are empathetic, you can get too involved in their story and you can end up colluding with it and collaborating with our own issues.

 

So that's to agree with you. Just to make a distinction, if it's helpful at all between sympathy and empathy, Mark says a new word so they both obviously had their roots in in Greek hate the pathos feeling. I would make this distinction. So if Mark comes along to me and says, You know what, Rob, I've had a really, really bad day and I say, always that I've got terrible hangover. I might be sympathetic to him.

 

And the point about sympathy is that I've never ever been hungover in my life, obviously. So I would say tomorrow. Oh, that that must be terrible, you know, so I make an imaginary imaginative leap in order to think what it must be like to be honest, that's never happened to me.

 

But now I'm trying to imagine what it would be like when I say to mark, you, poor chap, you know, you better lay off the communion wine or whatever it is, you're knocked off from your previous career as a priest. So that's sympathy, which I think I was imagining yourself in somebody else's situation.

 

But if Mark comes to me and says, Oh, I'm so exhausted today, so why is that? He says, Well, I was working all night. Suddenly, I'm in empathy mode, because I know what it's like to work all night. I do most days. I'm very, very virtuous, variously angelic.

 

I have exactly the same experience of working all the time. So I don't have to imagine what it's like to be tired from working. I've had the experience I'm recreating the experience in the moment. And that for me, it's the difference between sympathy and empathy.

 

Sympathy is on imagining what it's like. Whereas empathy is I've actually had that experience, we can go through it together.

 

And I think, incidentally, I think that's one of the reasons why these peer support groups can be so successful is nobody's offering a solution necessarily, but everybody has been there, and there's something deeply consoling about being in a group of people were realities, rather than solutions are offered. You can see how this

Dr Mark Vernon 07:35
You can see how this works. Who's the fall guy in this discussion? Myself in the service of elimination, and let's pick in
other words, it's slightly different, but maybe one that's going to be on the cast today as well, which is the word energy.

 

I'm always at the top of the list there and again, apologies for the lovely words are coming through. But let's go for energy. I like this word, because it actually means quite different things in different contexts. along with everything else that is sort of
tripping out about my past, I actually did a physics degree at one point.

 

And so energy in physics is described as that which can do work, you know, so I push something, I push it with energy and the work is that whatever I'm pushing moves, but it's only a very fascinating words that's used in lots of different contexts. You know, someone is depressed or say they're lacking energy, you will arrive in a new place and say it gives you energy.

 

And I think thinking about energy and it's more expansive kind of spirited way is really valuable because then you're opening yourself to all modes in which empathy can come to you. You know, it's not just about eating right, exercising, well, sleeping well, all those things, although it definitely is about that.

 

It may well be about reading the books that are going to challenge you make you think differently, like Jim was talking about at the top.

 

It may increasingly now that we can move around more about making the effort to go to different places, because you will be shocked sometimes actually, how a new energy comes to you just by being in a different place that enables new thoughts enables this cognitive diversity to kick in. And so I almost think of it as we live in kind of oceans of empathy. And we can move into the different currents that are around us when we develop that sensitivity, and not just think of energy as our sort of private possession that we've somehow got to look after as if it's scarce and might kind of depart from us one day. So your energy is a bit like light and wind. It means both things in the external world and things in the inner world.

 

And so, perhaps this is a good moment to think about neutral sources of energy as we move back out into the world apart from anything else.

Robert Rowland Smith 09:17
I want to pick up on what I just noticed in the chat was a while ago, Nathalie Sutherland wrote this thing narcissistic leadership.

 

When I know Mark You and I have lots to say about narcissism, personal experience, maybe. But just on energy, I think there is also bad energy as well as going to energy now we kind of think oh, you know, if I have more energy, it would be
great.

 

And I also do work with organisations on a consultancy basis. And I ran a project several years ago on organisational energy.

 

And what we realised quite early on in that project was that actually a lot of organisations have a lot of energy. The trouble is, it's at the bad variety and always it's, it's frenetic. You know, people just racing around being very, very busy answering emails, jumping to meeting to meeting on a call or a zoom conference or whatever it is, and almost creating the illusion of productivity through this level of activity.

 

So, I think we need to make a distinction between the two and if you want an image for both, you can think of some you can think of, so for example, you know, chicken with its head cut off, has a great deal of energy, right, but it doesn't have any focus or direction, right?

 

So it's not really the kind of energy you want to clean in an organisation. And what do you do say? So it's this combination
of energy and focus, or if you think of the opposite actually, if you think other people on the chain gang splitting rocks, no to build a road.

 

Well, you know, they've got plenty of focus.

They've got no energy because they're just going through the motions. So energy minus focus is frenetic a chicken, headless chicken, focus minus energy is a chain gang. So it's how you bring those two together focused energy I often think you know, we're coming into Tennessee isn't now at least we are in London where I am Wimbledon season.

 

I think of somebody like obvious example, maybe Roger Federer, you know, you're not frenetic. But he's incredibly athletic. He has energy but it's very focused. So for me that you know, Hibiya sort of brilliant example actually focused energy. 


Dr Mark Vernon 11:09
What brought about this narcissism, bring them up and also something almost used to care in people's minds the image of the headless chicken, that's gonna be the one you take from this conversation.

 

But it's good points, very good points, and that narcissistic leadership. I'm gonna go for tips actually with with this and I think it's something that is coming up increasingly, and again, psychotherapy has a whole kind of literature on the nature of narcissism.

 

And the key points from that is not actually that narcissistic people love themselves, but precisely the opposite.

 

They don't and so they can spend a whole lifetime sometimes trying to get the love that they don't know within themselves for themselves. And hence all the different forms of behaviour, sometimes which can be pursuing high positions of leadership, because then of course, you have a lot of people turning to you, and it can feel like a substitute for the love that is lacking inside.

 

Now, if you feel you're in this situation, I think there's two things which can help here coming from that. One is to recognise that that's actually what people are seeking. And so to affirm them for themselves as much as just try and run around maybe like a headless chicken, trying to obey and follow that rule is going to help much better because you're then addressing the where the root problem rather than the symptom and the response, so affirming people for what they're good at and so on. But the other thing is to maintain your boundaries actually, because part of the problem with narcissistic leadership is it kind of bleeds out across the organisation.

 

And everyone in a terrible position can find themselves as sort of as many reflections of the one leader and they feed in they're losing their sense of themselves in their own capacities. So you have to sometimes be brave, and say this father no further or Yes, but also No, and maintain those boundaries.

 

And that is not only good for you, it's actually good for them because what it encourages is the sense that they've actually got more of what it takes them perhaps they realised by totally within themselves, rather than constantly reaching out and trying to grab it from the world around and about.

 

And so do have empathy do show some understanding, but also maintaining those boundaries and Be not afraid to say no, as much as to say yes when it's appropriate. Don't lose your mind about narcissistic leadership.

Robert Rowland Smith 12:57
Thanks. Just have time for one more and just to remind people who don't know that, firstly, I mentioned the metamorphosis of it, and it has the original story of Narcissus and Narcissus is tragic, because he has this beautiful youth who sees his reflection in a stream and a pool of water, reaches in touch with his own reflected face.

 

And of course, whenever he does that, the water kind of shatters as it were, you can never gather himself up. So narcissism is a kind of tragedy of non what philosophers called non self coincidence not being aligned with yourself.

 

Just just very quickly, the last one here, let's go through this quickly obfuscation which is wonderful word it means making things more complex than they need to be.

 

And I would just say actually, some things are intrinsically dark and mysterious. And I've just, I think about those things distinction between an enigma and a secret. We didn't know until today. That was a secret of mine used to be a priest. Now everybody knows that. Right?

 

So it was a secret. But once it's no, it's no longer secret, and it's revealed. But an enigma is something that remains enigmatic even when it's revealed.

So if you think about the Mona Lisa painting, it's probably the most famous painting in the world. It's been seen a gazillion times. There's nothing secret about it whatsoever. And yet it remains enigmatic. So you can be an enigma, without being a secret can be a secret. Anything to add on that Mark before we close?

Dr Mark Vernon 14:12

Well, I'm gonna turn to a very wise thought from a philosopher called Robert Rowland Smith and his words 'endarkenment', which I actually love. And if I get Dr. Smith right, what he was saying was that sometimes too much enlightenment is bad, because it competes with trust is a word it substitutes for the sense of look, I'm gonna let you do what you're doing even though I don't fully understand it, because I trust you.

 

And instead demand that I want to know everything you're doing every moment of the day, every spreadsheet, every nuance, every information, and that actually destroys trust, in a call for transparency. And maybe this is something which we're really grappling with now, actually, that transparency and trust are almost in a kind of war with each other.

 

And Robert was saying in this wording 'endarkenment' that sometimes not knowing things seeming obscure, is actually more humane because it
builds human qualities rather than demanding that everything's exposed.

Robert Rowland Smith 15:02
Thank you, Mark, and I'll make sure I transfer that money to you before the end of the day. I think our time is up, Mark, thank you very much. I think we're going to hand back to Tim who's in the emcee chair

Tim Campbell MBE 15:18
The tussle between you two is beautiful to see. Even got me to see I was on mute. I was so excited. But essentially I will be sending you Mark a lawyer and slanderous comments around your consumption of wine, but he did pay it back to you by not being sycophantic about your book quality.

 

So I love that the way that you came to a lovely in Berlin gentlemen, please round of applause We got hopefully that has got you in the energy to think of things from a different perspective. The gentleman I'm really, really appreciative how you bring so much quality and grey matter to something that can be so simple as a word.

 

So thank you very much to both of you. I know you'll be joining us later. So if you missed out, you'll be getting them towards the end of the conference. Where they help in bringing that all together.